Broken Dreams Club Interview: Cindy

No band has done more to draw attention to San Francisco’s nascent “fog pop” scene than Cindy, the brainchild of singer-songwriter Karina Gill. Characterized by hushed vocals, unhurried, ambling tempos and proudly lo-fi recording techniques, Cindy’s songs evoke that vivid, dusky moment when one first wakes up, still half-immersed in a dream. 

After receiving critical acclaim for the band’s previous two full-length albums, Cindy is set to release a new EP, “Swan Lake,” through Tough Love Records on October 4. The band will also embark on a major UK/European tour later this year.

Broken Dreams Club recently caught up with Gill to discuss the upcoming tour, Cindy’s new EP and some endearing moments that helped inspire that record. 

So…it’s been another memorable year for the band. You toured the US with Horsegirl, are putting out this new EP and have another big UK/EU jaunt lined up later this year. What’s been your impression so far of the year? Must be exciting times?

The Horsegirl tour was really fun. I feel really lucky that Ground Control Touring invited us for that. I had never really toured the US, other than some small tours in Southern California. To be able to go to the East Coast and the Midwest and cities like Toronto was not something that I would have ever imagined doing. We were presented with a great opportunity to be brought along on a really nice tour that was already set up. All we had to do was basically show up and play. Horsegirl are such lovely people, and I really loved seeing them play every night. I got a sneak preview of music they're working on, so it was really this great experience. And my current bandmates are just a dream to travel with, so it was great. Other than it being crazy hot. I mean, I'm from the East Coast, so I understand. But, you know, my California bandmates were a little shocked. 

That must have been a pretty fascinating bill with Horsegirl—they’re kind of known for their outsized noise, and well, that’s not exactly Cindy’s forte.

Cindy usually plays with bands that are quite different from us, and I generally prefer that. The shows I've played where there was an effort to book us with somebody who is like us end up feeling confusing to me. But for the Horsegirl shows, the crowds were really receptive. There were some people who were there to see us, which is, you know, wonderful and amazing, and I think Horsegirl fans are known for being open minded. Everyone was extremely receptive and warm and friendly. It was really nice. 

You’ve discussed before how you started this musical endeavor a little later in life, watching closely while others pursued this field. When you decided to go into this thing, did you anticipate you’d be where you are today, as this really admired, respected and established musical act?

Definitely not. A lot of opportunities have sort of come to me, and I feel very lucky for that, honestly. I definitely never had ambitions around music, aside from, maybe the ambition to record a song as well as I can or whatever. I think that's pretty common around here with Bay Area bands. There are some exceptions, definitely, but most of the bands I know are mainly interested in developing aesthetically and creatively within our community. There's less of an outward looking feeling. And I certainly felt right at home with that. As you said, I haven't been playing music all my life—this is a relatively recent thing for me. It wasn't like I was, 14 years old, dreaming of touring. But now that it’s happened, I feel super lucky and grateful that I get to do this.

So, the new album—“Swan Lake”—obviously has a very famous title, but this has nothing to do with Russian Ballet, correct? What’s the significance of this name to you?

The song Swan Lake on the EP is referring to man-made lake in a park in Birmingham, England. Last time Cindy was over there, we all went for this walk, and it was full of conversations, and it was just this kind of magical hour or so. We ended up at this lake, and there were all these swan paddle boats in the lake, and they almost all seemed oversized. It was kind of bizarre looking. So the title refers to that place and that experience. But it is also meant to ring bells of that ballet. Even if you don't know that the title is a ballet,  it conjures something from the past—it sounds familiar. I think in my songs, I do that a lot--add these kinds of ringing bells that maybe are not entirely transparent, but have associations that add dimensions to the things we say, the things we hear. 

Now were these songs culled from the “Why Not Now” sessions, or were these written with an EP in mind?

They were all written after “Why Not Now.” I started recording them with just the idea of doing a 7”, because I like them—I think they're cool. But, apparently, record labels do not like 7” records. So I was thinking of doing a 7”, or maybe two, but then once the idea of doing a tour started evolving, it made more sense to record more songs that were new, so we could put together something that was a little bit more substantial of an offering. It went from being maybe I'll do a 7”just for fun, to ‘okay, well, I have, you know, like eight songs and I can find six of them are ready to be recorded.’ They all ended up being recorded in different ways. Oli [Lipton], my bandmate, has a great recording setup in his home. So, we did some there. We recorded a little with Robby Joseph, who helped us in the past. So yeah, they were all kind of put together in different manners. The “Swan Lake” song I recorded at home on a four -track, as you can probably hear.

You mentioned how there's not a whole lot of love for 7” records, but EPS are kind of a lost art as well. There is such a great history of bands with amazing EPs, though. What’s your relationship with EPs? And why was it important for you to release these songs in this format?

I don't know that I have a specific relationship with EPs, per se, but I definitely tend toward less is more. I don't need to hear a set that’s an hour and 20 minutes long or anything. And Cindy's MO has always been about what is happening now—about what is available. That’s not because I have any principled stand on this, it’s simply because it's how it works for me. I’ve never put together an album with this agenda in mind that I have to have 10 songs. That’s never been the case. It's always been—I have songs, they work together, here's a record., I think it's kind of just a reflection of what was real for us. I had a pool of songs that I could then bring to my bandmates and at the time. I had made demos of a lot of them, and they were just kind of ready to go somewhere. I tend to record things and release them pretty swiftly. That has its drawbacks and sometimes I wish I weren't like that, but that's how I am. I just want to do what's happening now and then do the next thing. 

Yeah, and you talked about workshopping these demos. I know there is deep love for demo recordings for certain San Francisco bands (Sad Eyed Beatniks and April Magazine, for example.) There is an appreciation for embracing the imperfections of recordings and in many ways, I associate EPs with some of those demo recordings. Do you share that same kind of appreciation for demos?

Well, I think for me, it's just kind of what I do. I suppose I could adopt another way, but it has no appeal for me at all. I wish I were somebody who could make things more perfect. I wish I was somebody who could, you know, work on something until it has a less vulnerable form. But I'm just not that person. I also think people would be surprised by some of the recordings that you think are effortless. Those other Bay Area albums you mentioned that are similar to us—they are certainly not effortless and nor is Cindy. There is a lot of labor that goes into our work. It may be a different kind of labor—one that is not about the polish, but more about the source. And it’s not this decided-upon route. It's just an expression of what works for me, and I think likewise for the other bands you mentioned. There's this desire to keep moving and not kind of be outward facing and product oriented. We want something that is kind of invulnerable. Something that’s so shiny and bright you can't look at it straight. 

You said that six of you took part in the recording sessions. The Cindy band lineup has gone through some evolutions over the years, but you seemed to have settled on a pretty steady core at this moment, right?

Well, the lineup right now is definitely amazing—I feel so lucky. The live lineup is made up of folks who are able to tour. So there Oli Lipton and Will Smith, both from Now and then Staizsh Rodrigues from Children Maybe Later, who is also doing another project now called Peace Frog. So the four of us have become a band in the sense that we tour, and you know, we've made a set that works for us. But the Cindy sound that’s on the recording also has Stanley Martinez, and Mike Ramos. Again, I’m so lucky that I live in this place where they're all these amazing musicians. And even if someone can't be a touring member because they have other obligations or whatever, you know, they are still willing to contribute to a recording. “Why Not Now?” was full of people from the community who contributed. 

Some of these songs on “Swan Lake” have pretty interesting origin stories. The opening track, “All Weekend” for instance, traces back to an inspiring elevator ride, right? What was the exact genesis and inspiration for that song?

Yeah, a couple years ago now, I was on an elevator in the Main Branch Public Library here in San Francisco, and there was another person on the elevator. It was just the two of us and they were having some non-consensus reality experience. I found myself kind of enraptured by how totally enraptured they were. They were having some experience that was totally immersive, and I was just there to get a book. There was something about that person, and that experience that stuck with me over years.

Every Cindy album seems to contain a stirring instrumental track and this EP is no different. “The Birds in Birmingham Park” is this gorgeous, ambling stroll of the song. What attracts you to these songs with no words?

Most of my songs are really lyric-driven and part of me wishes that I could get away from that, but it is kind of what I have to offer, largely. But I do love instrumental music. That song is very much a mood. I think all my songs strive to capture something like a mood that has its own sort of logic, its own emotional logic. And that song is also about walking through that park in Birmingham. I mean, it's not about anything specific, but that song kind of comes, in some sense, from that experience. I did actually write lyrics for it originally, but they seemed extraneous, so I shifted away from that, and just had this kind of feeling and progression and structure. And then Oli was able to elaborate it so beautifully on guitar. It just became something where the music was able to communicate the mood far better than the words could. 

The title track is a nice wrinkle for the album, with its spoken word delivery. How did you arrive at that kind of arrangement?

That was a really spontaneous demo. I’ve done similar things. There's a song on “Free Advice” that's basically spoken. It feels kind of funny, I suppose, and makes me slightly squeamish, but sometimes that's just what it is. And for that particular song, I was thinking about different kinds of associative thinking. And it just felt like there was no place for a melody. I just had that structure and tone and I recorded it really fast. Usually, I think through songs a bit more before I record them, but that was just kind of spontaneous. 

You have this really big tour coming up in Europe and the UK coming up. This will be your first trip to Europe, but your second trip to the UK. Are you all pretty excited for that?

The UK tour was a year and a half ago, and that was my first international tour. I feel really privileged to get to go back to the UK, and, you know, and play at venues where they want to have us. We get to return to London and Glasgow and Manchester, so that's cool. And then Europe—I mean, I'm really looking forward to it. I'm going to places I've never been. I’ve never been to Berlin or Amsterdam or Rotterdam, Geneva, all these places. So, it's exciting. And Ruben [Myles Tyghe], who runs Outsider Artists, just does a great job of making the tour make sense—making it financially viable and practical and doable for a band at our level where we're not obviously playing massive venues. I'm really looking forward to it. I mean, I'm slightly terrified, but that's normal. 

And are there plans for a possible headlining Cindy tour domestically? 

Nothing planned. We get back mid-November, so probably for this year, that's going to be it. But we’ve gotten invited to different parts of the US. And I think once I recover from this upcoming tour, I might have the bandwidth to think about maybe an East Coast tour. We’ve also had some really lovely invitations from the South. I don't know that I could book a tour in the US on my own and keep my sanity, but I could definitely try. 

I know the EP is coming out in a couple of weeks, but do you have plans on writing a full length album as well? 

I mean, these songs keep showing up. And I do like recording, especially when it can be at someone's home or a really comfortable place, like Robby’s studio. So yeah, I would totally embark on another collection if I had the songs that made sense to do that. But no immediate plans at the moment. 

Other updates worth highlighting? Album news, announcements? Anything happening with Flowertown?

Nothing concrete. Mike and I are good friends and Flowertown is always sort of there in the background. He just went to Japan as Tony J and both of us are in Sad-Eyed Beatniks, which has been really fun. I don't know that Flowertown has any concrete plans, but when those songs are being written, they tend to be like a faucet. So, if we start again, we’ll probably get some songs recorded quickly. I’ll keep you posted on that. 

“Swan Lake” is out Friday on Tough Love Records.

Broken Dreams Club Interview: Built to Spill

Photo credit: Alex Hecht

Legendary indie rockers Built to Spill will be playing two shows at the Fillmore on Friday, September 27 and Saturday, 28. To mark the 30th anniversary of their beloved sophomore release, “There’s Nothing Wrong With Love,” the Boise band will play that album in its entirety each night.

Broken Dreams Club caught up with Built to Spill founder and sole permanent member Doug Martsch prior to the band’s shows to talk about his love-hate relationship with “There’s Nothing Wrong With Love,” performing in San Francisco and what’s next for the group:

You’ve been playing these “There’s Nothing Wrong with Love” shows for more than a month now. What’s that been like—have fans been pretty excited to hear this album live in its entirety?

It’s been really fun. It took a little while to get rolling with it. I don't know if we had as much rehearsal time as I wanted, but it’s starting to feel pretty good after a few weeks. It’s been cool having a cello player out here for this run. 

So, you have a cello player on this tour? What is the tour lineup right now? Is it Melanie [Radford] and Teresa [Esguerra ] and the cello player? 

Yeah, exactly. Mel and T and John McMahon on cello. It’s been awesome.

You’ve been approaching these shows with an interesting setlist—starting with a song not off “There’s Nothing Wrong With Love” before launching into the full album. Any particular reason for that approach?

Yeah—that’s another example of where I wish that we had had a little more rehearsal time to figure out things. We played maybe a couple weeks of shows starting with “There’s Nothing Wrong With Love,” and then decided to mix it up a bit. I really like that it’s a way to warm up the show a little bit, and then you jump into the record. It’s a little more exciting. I wish we had done that from the beginning. 

You’ve been so consistent with touring. I think you've played more than 250 shows over the past two years. How important is it to maintain that steady, live presence? 

I think for me, it's just my job and what I do. That’s how I think of it. There’s something to playing a lot so that you're comfortable and playing at your best. We took eight months off and I feel like it took a little bit for us to get going again. I’m not sure how bands do it that take long hiatuses or just drop out of music, and then come back a few years later. I guess everyone has their own way of performing and their own relationship to live music, but for me, it would be really hard to pick it all up again after not doing it for a long time. I don't know—it just seems the more I play, the more comfortable I am. 

Even after all these years, huh?

For sure, definitely. I'm not a real natural music person. It takes a lot of time for me to get into the zone. 

Ok—let’s talk about “There’s Nothing Wrong With Love.” Last time I interviewed you, you weren’t exactly praiseworthy of this album. Have you softened a bit on it, since you’ve started playing it live in full every night?

I like the songs, for the most part. I just really don't like the recording. The guitars don't sound very good. I didn't play very well back then. I could just only play guitar enough to be serviceable. With my singing, it’s the same thing. There are a lot of things about it that I just feel like they are not very well done. I've improved a lot—at least in my own mind—over the years. But the songs are fun to play now. We do them our own way. The guitar sounds different now, and I sing differently, and I prefer it this way. I understand, too, how it's just a record of that time period. I'm not ashamed of it, but I'm not very psyched about it, either.

What was it like revisiting these songs? Some you’ve been playing live for years, but others you haven’t played much at all.

Well, I guess my thing is that the words and the chords and the melodies are all there, but the way that they're performed is different. I have a different way of singing, a different way of playing guitar, than I did back then. I changed a lot from doing it live over the years as a result of finding my voice and getting more comfortable with the guitar. I try and strip away parts of the songs that I don’t think are essential, but I’m not trying to be extreme like a Bob Dylan thing or something. Sometimes bands make a really cool improvement on their songs and their live shows, and I hope that's what we're doing when we do our old songs. Hopefully we're making them better, and not worse. 

Not only did you record this album 30 years ago, but it certainly feels like the most earnest, almost whimsical Built to Spill album. Was it particularly nostalgic going back to these songs?

Well, there's really not much nostalgia. I don't think about how I felt at the time or what was going on in my brain, really. It’s more about figuring out how I can make it sound good today. And I don't really think about whether or not it transports anyone back. That's not important to me. What matters is making music that sounds good for me right now. 

It also feels like the most autobiographical Built to Spill album. Songs like “Twin Falls,” and “Car” and “Distopian Dream Girl” seem to offer this glimpse into your life that we don’t often get to see. Do you consider this your most personal Built to Spill album?

I mean, it's not too autobiographical. I don't even have a stepfather, that was someone else. “Twin Falls” is not about anyone real, either. So, it’s not necessarily autobiographical, but maybe personal, maybe a little more earnest. I don’t remember the feeling that I had when we made the record too much, but I remember thinking that it was nice to make just a really sweet pop record, with lots of melodies and without any distortion. There's no reverb or anything. It sounds like a home recording at a time when everything was all about grunge and this loud rock stuff. I definitely felt like we were just doing something totally weird. 

So, you didn't really have a stepdad who looked like David Bowie? 

Nope. And “Car” is just a bunch of random words. Not much of it is really about me or anyone. I think there's a few songs that are about my wife Karena. “Reasons” is this pretty love song about her, and “Cleo” is about our kid being in the womb. “Israel’s Song” is a song that Karena wrote all the lyrics to, and it's about a kid with autism that she worked with a little bit. So it's kind of all over the place. “Stab” is not really about anything. I think it's just kind of nonsense words that sound serious.

And so, you mentioned, “Stab,” which is one of the jammier songs on the album, but  “There’s Nothing Wrong With Love” is generally known as the Built to Spill “pop” album. After writing this album, did you feel kind of freed up to explore the more vast, exploratory song structures you specialize in with “Perfect From Now On?”

Yeah, I don't know if it was that specifically. I feel like each record is a little bit of a reaction to what was before. There seems to be a little bit of that pattern. The first record, “Ultimate Alternative Wavers”, was more kind of jammed out, with a lot of improvising and experimental music and song structures. And so, “There’s Nothing Wrong With Love” was really concise. And then “Perfect From Now On” is more of a reaction to that conciseness. “Perfect From Now On” was also about a bit of a fear of a record label trying to do something commercial with us, trying to sort of throw a monkey wrench into the things a little bit. My fear was being over-promoted. I mean, now I wish, I wish we'd done it, but I just did not want that at the time. The whole radio version of music didn't ever make much sense to me. The stuff that got played on the radio, it didn't really sound good to me. 

I love “Hidden Track ” from “There’s Nothing Wrong With Love.” I’m sad I never got to the hear the full version of that song that starts “a man needs loving…” Where did that idea come from, to do that, like, fake preview of the next album?

I don't even remember. It was just this silly idea, and we were able to spend enough time to pull it off all right. Maybe I'll have AI do a full album from that one track. 

“There’s Nothing Wrong With Love” obviously resonates with so many people. There are a ton of Built to Spill fans who consider this their favorite album. Why do you think it’s still special to so many people after all these years?

I have no idea. I remember when we made it, I was really proud of it and really happy with it. It was the first time that I'd spent that much time in the studio—that I finished a record and didn’t really feel like I had to go back and work on it some more. I felt so satisfied with the whole process and working with Phil [Ek] and the band and the collection of songs and the way it all fit together—it just felt like a big accomplishment, But listening back to it now, I wish I still felt that way. I really can't stress enough how disappointed I was to go back and listen to it over and over to prepare for this tour. I just, I don't really like it very much. “Perfect From Now On” or “Keep It Like A Secret”— those records have some similar things that I don’t like, but they’ve grown on me a little bit more. “There’s Nothing Wrong With Love,” for some reason—I just don’t connect. I know I’m not promoting this very much! I mean, I do remember when the record came out and people in Boise were hearing about it and stuff. It was kind of the first record that I made that had any kind of audience beyond my friends and family. Not many people listened to that first Built to Spill record—maybe a handful of people knew about it. So, all of a sudden, this one came out, and we were on the cover of The Rocket, which was really big in the Northwest, so that was super exciting. There was this one guy who worked at The Record Exchange—this older guy who was really cool—and I remember he didn't like the album. I couldn’t understand why at the time. But I definitely can see now how someone could be annoyed by the album.

You’re playing two shows at the Fillmore. Over the years, you’ve played in plenty of San Francisco venues. Where does the Fillmore rank among those sites? It’s a pretty special place.

Yeah, it might be my favorite place, anywhere. I love it so much. I loved playing at Slim’s, but no Fillmore is the best.

And you’ve never gone too long without visiting San Francisco. Do you feel like you always get a nice reaction when you come here?

For sure. It’s one of a handful of most important places to us. 

You released “When the Wind Forgets Your Name” in 2022 on Sub Pop, which is just the perfect label for Built to Spill. Are you all working on material for a new album? Any updates on when we could expect that release?

No, nothing at all. I haven't really written a song in a long time, and even with “When The Wind Forgets Your Name”—a lot of that stuff was mostly pretty old. I don't know. I haven't been pushing myself or anything. I assume I'll write some more songs one day, but maybe that phase is over for me. But getting back to AI actually, I just downloaded an AI app and made a birthday song for my brother, and it was so incredible and weird. So, maybe it’s over for me. 

Final question: what’s your favorite song from “There’s Nothing Wrong with Love?”

If I had to choose, I mean, my favorite one to play, at least, is probably “Some.” Just to noodle around with that chord progression that I think is so pretty. It’s kind of become my favorite one on this tour to play. It's a little too low to sing, but over the course of these few weeks, I feel like I have I settled into where I'm supposed to sing it where my voice feels right. “Big Dipper” is also a nice one. “Reasons” is one of my favorites. “Car,” is an interesting song, but I also kind of hate it.

Show Details:
Built to Spill with Quasi
When: 8 p.m., Friday, September 27 and Saturday, September 28
Where: The Fillmore
Tickets: $53, available here.

Broken Dreams Club Interview: Google Earth

Photo Credit: Maria Vanderslice

For decades, John Vanderslice was the impish cult hero of the San Francisco music scene. A prolific singer-songwriter, Vanderslice also operated Tiny Telephone Recording, a beloved studio in the Mission District.

Feeling pressure from the increasingly untenable cost-of-living in San Francisco, Vanderslice closed Tiny Telephone in 2020 and decamped to Los Angeles, although the satellite Tiny Telephone studio in Oakland stayed open. Vanderslice will soon be on the move again, as he and his wife Maria are set to relocate to the Netherlands next May. 

Before he leaves, Vanderslice will continue work on his latest project, Google Earth, an electronica-infused outfit he’s formed with longtime collaborator James Riotto (a highly accomplished producer and musician in his own right.) The duo’s debut album, “Street View,” will be coming out on August 9, and on Tuesday, the group released their second single from that record, “JJolts.”

Broken Dreams Club spoke with Vanderslice and Riotto about their longtime partnership, recording “Street View,” MDMA, and the importance of chair placement in studios.

So…take me back to the beginning. You two met in 2009 in San Francisco at Tiny Telephone, right? What was that first meeting like? Kind of instant chemistry?

John Vanderslice (JV): Yeah, it was just instant chemistry. I thought, ‘oh, this guy is such a baller.’ I just knew it. He was kind of intimidating, for some reason. I remember he kind  of spoke to me really self-assured. And he's confident and I'm nervous. And I talk too much. He just seemed really comfortable in his own skin. He did an arrangement of "They Won't Let Me Run" from “Cellar Door,” and it was almost violent and overwhelming. So, we became friends. Then he started working at the studio. He started interning at the studio, or working at the studio and then immediately I was like, ‘let’s go on tour, let's work together.’ And we started making a bunch of records together. Now we just keep collaborating.

James— I think shortly after that initial meeting, John told you that one of your albums was recorded “terribly”—but that actually inspired you to explore production more? Is that true, and how did that kind of brutal honesty encourage you to explore the field more?

James Riotto (JR):I was touring with John in his band, and I was working on this album with my band and I was really excited about it. And I gave it to John, and I said, ‘hey, tell me what you think of this,’ and he was kind of radio silent. And then after a while, I pressed the issue. And he said, ‘I didn't say anything at first because honestly, I think it sounds terrible.’ And it really hurt. You know, when he said it, it was hard. But then I walked away from it, and I was, I know that John really respects me a lot. Because you know, he's hired me to be in his band. I had just arranged some of his music for this orchestra. And I know he's very effusive. I knew John thought a lot about me and thought highly of me. So, then it was the only reason he would have said that, is if it was true. And I kind of know this sounds insane, but at that point, I'd never really thought about music in the way it was recorded. I only really thought about it as, you set up some microphones and you play music. That's a very jazz way of thinking. And I kind of remember putting on one of his records and thinking, it really does sound so much better. I had no idea what he was doing, but it just sounded way better. And I wanted to know how to do that.

You’ve been friends for 15 years now. What prompted this latest collaboration?

JR: Well, we've made, I don't know, three records together before. And that was always John's music, but it was very collaborative. I mean, I think the last couple we sort of just wrote together.

JV: They were very collaborative, equally collaborative.

JR: And I think we were pushing each other into weirder territory with electronic music. And honestly, we were getting into these MDMA hangs, where we would listen to this weird electronic abstract music, and it just sounded so new and exciting to us. We both got into making that sort of experimental music. We just got together to jam and experiment with these particular boxes that we had made by this company Elektron. And I don't think we really were intending on making an album, that just sort of happened really organically out of these hangs, where we would get together and jam and experiment with these very particular idiosyncratic instruments.

And you chose the moniker Google Earth for the band name. That might be the least searchable name possible. Was that part of the appeal? Kind of a commentary on the digital nomadic life we all live now? The idea that if something can’t be Googled, it might as well not exist?

JV: I think that we basically just boofed coming up with a bad name, especially me and then my poor wife had given us a list of like, 100 names, and she's still irritated that we picked Google Earth. And Jamie and I were kind of poring over these names and it's so hard to come up with a name. As an adult man, I can't believe I've been doing this for like 20 years, and I still can’t come up with a stupid band name.

JR: I remember that I was working with this band at my studio, and I had this list that Maria [John's wife] had made, and we were having lunch. And I started talking about how it's hard to come up with a band name and they were just said, ‘okay, let's do this. You say a band name. And on the count of three, we all just rate it from one to 10.’ And I would say a band name and just everyone would give it a one. So, then we started talking about how you have to have a weird misspelling to make it searchable. Then we talked about how there's this counter movement to basically make it impossible to search, so I said Google Earth, and I told John about this discussion, and he was like, ‘that’s actually good,’ and it took me to this place, where I really liked it too. It’s an anti-band name.

Again, Street View as the album title is much in that same vein. Are you almost like fucking with people at this point?

JV: Well, that was my wife, Maria. She is always kind of filling in the gaps with Jamie and me. She was just, you know, the ‘record really should be called the “Street View”’. We were both kind of like, ‘god damn, she’s right.’

JR: We also had this photo from when we were at the studio, mixing it in Oakland. Our friend Danielle took this photo of us that was outside the studio, and so it felt like “Street View” really worked with us. 

John—you’ve been steering into this electronica musical direction for years now. We’ve talked in the past how you could never picture yourself returning to that singer-songwriter milieu you once inhabited. It just feels so stale. Do you ever see yourself growing tired in that same way of this digital world?

Well, it's a good question. You know, it's funny making two records right now. Jamie and I are making another Google Earth record right now. And then I've been trying for the past year and a half to finish this new solo record and, you know, I have to finish it because we're packing up all of the music gear for honestly, about nine months. Once the container gets here, everything's packed up and it's gone, and the container takes six months to get to the Netherlands. So, I can't imagine not finishing this record, but I’m really struggling to make a solo record that’s a blended version of normal songs and electronic stuff and it's really not very good. Honestly, it's not very good. I'm not being funny. I'm not being coy—I listened to it this morning. I felt I was making some headway. And I listened to every song I have in this folder and it’s really not believable music except for two songs I think are really cool. And so now I'm in this weird panic mode of like, "I’ve got to figure out how to do this. I do think it is a little bit hard for me to go back to writing songs on acoustic guitar. I think it's hard just simply because it's really tough. I don't think that's in invalid. I mean, I was listening to the Flying Burrito Brothers yesterday and T. Rex. I like those songs. I think that I’m just burned out personally and I become very impatient writing lyrics and that's just 100 percent laziness. I just think that electronic music is this endless kind of maze that you can go into. And Jamie and I talk about this all the time. Because it can be endless, it’s a lot of fun to find the reason why you're doing it—and that's often the hardest part. That's why Jamie and me collaborating was so easy because we could find that path forward together. If you're alone, you're simply like, ‘why in the fuck am I making these bleeps and bloops, you know?’

Jamie—you come from a jazz background. You talked about it a little bit in the beginning, but how did you kind of start to embrace these more electronica sounds? 

JV: Drugs!

JR: I mean, honestly, that was a big part of it, but also, some of my favorite music that I started with, they're entry points into it. It's funny, when you get into jazz, there is sort of a trajectory. You're not all of a sudden listening to the Art Ensemble of Chicago. It would sound cacophonous and fucking nuts. So, you start with, Duke Ellington and Oscar Peterson and then Sonny Rollins and it sounds cool and then you listen to Miles Davis and, you know, there's a progression that gets you into the more abstract stuff. And I think the same sort of thing happens with electronic music where you listen to Radiohead, and then you realize that Thom Yorke is always listening to Overmono and you know, Squarepusher and stuff like that. And then you listen to that, and you realize that those guys are into Autechre. And suddenly, you are listening to music that would have been unimaginable to you a couple of years ago. And I guess another thing is that working in a recording studio. Now, the actual sonics of something are really important to me and electronic music pushes that in a way that very few things do. It’s also kind of—I know this sounds silly—but I've thought about a porn star and what kind of sex they'd be into. They can't just have vanilla sex. You know? And I just listen to music all the time, so at a certain point, the things that get me really excited are kind of a little weirder than they are with most people. Electronic music felt like it tapped into that, you know, weird thing.

Let’s talk about this new album. You’re both accomplished producers and mixers and engineers. What was it like working together as a duo on an album? How did you kind of split up those managerial duties for Street View?

JR: Well, I think we’ve worked on about 50 records together. I worked at John’s studio for about 12 years and basically learned everything I know from working at Tiny Telephone. So, it felt pretty normal.

JV: There’s one funny thing—Jamie is a much better engineer than I am, and he's a much better producer than I am. But because of the studio setup, where I’m basically blocking his access, I ended up engineering. It’s literally because my chair faces all the equipment. And it definitely doesn't sound as good as it would if Jamie were sitting in the chair. It's just that it’s my studio.

JR: Yeah—it’s set up for John for the way he works and he's the only one that needs it. So, I sit in the chair, and I'm like, ‘where the hell is everything’. So, it’s just easier for him to do it.

The first single is ‘something complicated.’ I know there isn’t an elaborate product roll out for this album, but was there a particular reason you all chose to release that song first? John—your voice sounds gorgeous and haunting, and the sonic textures are so rich and strange. Did it just feel like the right song to lead with?

JV: Well, Jamie did all the song structures and he also played everything, so he played the acoustic guitar and all the real stuff. I think that we just felt that that song had this very unusual unfolding structure that just keeps developing. I love how unbelievably long it is and the vocals are just one thing repeating with effects. You know, I think I only did whatever one line and then just affected it through, you know, plugins and other junk.

John—we’ve talked about this topic for some of your most recent work and James, as a jazz musician, I’m sure you’re familiar with this concept, but for music that feels formless and boundless like the tunes on “Street View”, how do you determine when one song ends and the other begins?

JR: As I said—and I truly know this sounds like a trope—but we were not trying to make a record at all. And the way that this happened feels kind of like magic. ‘something complicated’ as an example—we made that when we were hanging out, we made it in one day in about two hours. The basic part of that song was made because we had this idea to try a vocoder. We had never really worked with a vocoder and we're like, let's download this vocoder and see if it's cool. So, we made that song. And I'm not exaggerating that I never listened to it. We never talked about it again for maybe six or seven months. Yeah, it was just in a Google Drive folder. And, then it was only when I basically went on a hike and I got stoned and I downloaded some of the stuff in the Google Drive folder and I listened and I remember calling John and said ‘dude, there's actually really good stuff in here.’ And then we started working on stuff. And at that point, John took ‘something complicated’ and did all the vocal stuff and kind of did an arrangement of it because at the time it felt like almost an etude—just a means to practice. And then he did that and sent it to me and I was thinking, ‘holy shit, this is awesome, you know?’ And so, the whole process of finding songs and knowing where they started and ended just felt incredibly organic. I think that's very unique. 

For a lot of songs, you can see how your loves of jazz and electronica intersect. “JJolts”, for instance, has these huge blaring noises that sound like alien brass instruments. Was that the idea? To create digital sounds that recall analog instruments?

JR: I think that song was those nine Elektron boxes, and John and I both had a mono machine and a machine drum. And that was actually one of the last songs that we made for this record. It came together in about an hour. And John did this really interesting thing. The mono machine is split into six instruments within itself. And he externally played all of the instruments together with another keyboard which, I just didn't even know was possible. And so that weird melody thing in the middle was just John, playing the whole mono machine and it turned into this sort of quasi instrument that you've never heard before. 

But there are some real horns on the album, right? “Deep Sea Leaks”, for instance? 

JR: Yeah—our friend Nicole McCabe played some sax, alto sax and flute on a couple songs. 

JV: It's really amazing when a real instrument pops in, because this is a very claustrophobic, highly, digital landscape that has its own pleasures. But sometimes it's amazing just to get a little bit of air in there.

“Afterlife” really feels like such an appropriate coda for the album. It’s a departure from most of the album and feels like the most traditional “pop song,” although most don’t start with “I cut my wrists.” Was it important to end on that note? Did you always feel like that was the album closer?

JV: It felt like a good, sad funny closer. Those lyrics, which Maria wrote, I think are hilarious. I mean, they're so fun and weird.

The album comes out August 9. Any plans to tour? John you’ve really embraced—I guess unconventional touring approaches—living room shows, venues that aren’t traditional clubs—could that be something that works for Google Earth?

JV: I'm also cutting out the ticket buyers because no one is buying tickets. No, I mean, I don’t think the house shows could work. I think that probably every artist now out there, feels that everything has just shrunk down. It’s just not feasible for me to leave LA County. Jamie and I have been playing shows in LA and it's a total blast. We’re going to play at the end of the month, but other than that, we don’t have a ton of plans.

So that show at the end of the month—will that be a Google Earth show?

JV: Yeah—it’s at a really cool place called Healing Forces in Pasadena.

And will that be the first “Google Earth” show?

JR: We had one a few weeks ago at Permanent Records in LA. You know, what's interesting is that we set these rehearsals and we thought, ‘yeah, let's play music off this record.’ And then we got to John's house to rehearse and both of us agreed that there's no fucking way we're playing these songs.

Yeah—I was going to ask. How would a live show translate? There are so many moving parts on these songs—how would you approach recreating that sound in a live setting?

JV: We couldn’t play one song live.

JR: I mean, it would take us two months, working every day to figure out how to play these songs. And that’s sort of a goal. I think it would be amazing, and really impressive. But we just made a set of electronic music to improvise. And I think we're going to do a similar thing in a couple of weeks.

John—how are things at Tiny Telephone in Oakland? Are you still making frequent visits?

JV: I think that all that stuff is okay, but I think I'm definitely worried. We’re only half booked for August, and I just don't have the financial wiggle room for this. I just got super depressed this morning thinking about it. I've already removed myself from the studio and I don't live in the Bay Area. So, I'm definitely worried that it stays busy. And I'm not doing myself favors by leaving the country.

Yeah, I mean, does it survive the move to the Netherlands? 

JV: I hope so. I’m pretty far removed now. No one really knows that I even live in LA. But I think that in time, the position of the studio has just weakened. The Bay Area has weakened art-wise, and it hasn't had that replenishment yet, you know? I mean, I'm nervous, you know, but we'll see what happens. But Jamie's studio is very, very successful. 

Jamie—what projects are you working on at your studio?

JR: Well, in the last year I've worked with Jamie XX. Dave from Dirty Projectors was in here and we are starting a record on Monday with Local Natives. It’s fun, but I love the stuff I do with John. I’m excited about this project.

“Street View” comes out on August 9.